On October 10th, at the All-In 2025 SummitAlibabaCo-founder of the Group, Chairman of the Board of DirectorsJoseph Tsai♪ Share him in depth ♪SINO-AMERICAN SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMPETITION, ALI STRATEGIC TRANSFORMATION AND AGI We are waiting for the latest views on the hot topicCai Zhong Xin sincerely said:AI NOT IN THE FIELD OF WINNER-FRIENDLY FOOD, BUT IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE STRONGEST AI MODEL, THE REAL VICTORY LIES NOT IN THE ABILITY TO ACHIEVE TECHNOLOGY LANDING AND APPLICATION MORE QUICKLY.”
CAI ZHONGSIN AND THE WHITE HOUSE, AL AND THE HEAD OF THE ENCRYPTED MONEY SERVICE, KNOWN AS THE "WHITE HOUSE AL TSAR" David Sacks Let's get to the point. Sacks stressed the need for the United States to stay ahead of the AI and chip fields. Cai Zhongsin believes:“The United States should invest more resources in the application and diffusion of technology, rather than focusing solely on technology research and development.”
Zai Chong Chong Xin added that China actively embraces the open source concept and that many companies have introduced models of modest parameters, a development model that is more conducive to rapid diffusion of technology. Although he did not assert that China had taken the lead in the model technology competition, he did not know that China was leading in the model technology competitionHowever, it was stated that “at the practical level, China has made significant progress”。HE CONCLUDED THAT AI WAS BECOMING THE UBIQUITOUS ELEMENT OF AIR, AND THAT NO COUNTRY WOULD CLAIM EXCLUSIVE POSSESSION OF AIR。
Turning to Ali, Cai Zhongshin said that he had joined because of Ma Yun ' s leadership and had been very impressed by Ma Yun ' s clear vision and human understanding. In the course of the 26 years of development of Ali, Zai Zhongshin witnessed Chinese companies"A free expansion" into "a new normal"The current policy regulatory environment is seen as more predictable and stable。
Ali has undergone internal changes in the past few years. Cai Zhongshin revealed that after returning to his post as Chairman of the BoardThe first thing to do was to tell everyone that it was “too confusing” to advertise to the outside world that Ali was involved in six different operations。
Cai Chongsin focused Ali's strategy onElectrician and cloud computingTHE TWO CORES, AND THE DEEP INTEGRATION OF AI INTO BUSINESS, ARE KEY TO GOOD CORPORATE GOVERNANCE. CURRENTLY, THE CODE FOR ARILIO 30% HAS BEEN GENERATED BY AI。
With regard to the future of AI, Cai Cai Chongsin specifically mentioned Google DeepMind, founder and CEO Demis Hassabis, for the predictions that AGI might achieve within 5 to 10 years, but Cai Cai Chongsin himself believed that the future of the AGI would be an important oneIT'S GONNA TAKE ABOUT 20 YEARS FOR AGI TO GET HERE。
ASIDE FROM ALI, CAI ZHONGSHIN HAS ANOTHER IDENTITY: HE'S THE BOSS OF THE NBA TEAM, THE BROOKLYN BASKETNET, AND THE WNBA TEAM, THE NEW YORK FREEMAN. DURING THE INTERVIEWS, HE ALSO SHARED HIS BUSINESS EXPERIENCE IN RUNNING THE TEAM AND HIS INSIGHTS INTO THE SPORTS INDUSTRY。
RECENTLY, IN 2025, THE NBA CHINESE RACE WILL BE HELD IN MACAU, SIX YEARS AFTER THE EVENT, AND THE TWO TEAMS PARTICIPATING IN THIS COMPETITION ARE THE PHOENIX SUN TEAM AND THE BROOKLYN BASKET NETWORK, WHICH IS THE NBA TEAM UNDER THE BANNER OF CAI ZHONGSHIN, AND ALI YUN SPONSORED THE EVENT. ON 9 OCTOBER, NBA CHINA AND THE ARIBABA GROUP ANNOUNCED THAT NBA CHINA AND ALIYUN HAD REACHED A MULTI-YEAR COOPERATION。
The All-In 2025 Summit was held in the United States from 8 September to 10 September this year and was launched by Silicon Valley's famous podcast All-In. This year's summit was also attended by a group of leading technology industry leaders, Elon Musk and Demis Hassanis。
Cai Zhongshin's interview at the All-In summit (the team's questions and answers are adjusted to the end of the text):
In the 26 years since the establishment of Ali, the regulatory environment has entered a new normal
Moderator: Talk about Ali Baba. It's an incredible journey, and it's all in Maun's storybook, but can you take us back to your mind? How did you get involved, what were you thinking, how much risk did you take
Cai Zhongshin:I'm fascinated by Ma Yun's personality. What people see is the open side of Ma Yun, very charming. But what I see is that he can instil faith in people。
When I walked into his apartment, there were about 12 to 15 college graduates, and Ma Yun was like a teacher 10 years older。
He is good at communication and can paint a very clear vision. That is why I really agree and join. His leadership is amazing。
Ma Yun is a teacher of his own, is educated and has taught English at Zhejiang University. Teachers are, to some extent, natural leaders. Teachers must first be good at communicating and then be able to identify talent。
I think a lot of teachers like to make the judgment that the child will be very productive in the future, write recommendations for them, do all kinds of things。
And teachers are modest enough to be willing and even happy to see their students succeed more than they are. In starting a company, you need to be able to accommodate a wide range of people smarter than you. This is very important。
Moderator: There was a phase, I think, in the early 2010s. At that time, China felt like a highly liberal capitalist environment, with the emergence of a large number of excellent entrepreneurs, including you, Ma Yun, Ma Tung and others。
Then something changed. Can you help us with this change? I believe that these changes have profoundly affected foreign direct investment into China ' s ecosystems. Please tell us what you have experienced, participated and observed
Cai Zhongshin:ali baba has been in existence for 26 years. i think the first 15 years were completely free-market-style growth, and we built a lot of business internally. and then we entered an extreme phase of competition. everyone wants to do e-commerce. because if you have online traffic, e-commerce is the best way to realize it。
And in today's market, we have five, six very, very strong competitors, including TikTok's parent bytes. They are also doing e-commerce. They are not known as electricians, but they are one of our strongest competitors。
We went through a period of extreme competition, and the government thought the industry was a little off track. Competition is too intense and there are some platforms that show monopolistic behaviour. As a result, more regulatory measures were introduced, some of which were in fact very good, such as privacy protection and antimonopoly related measures。
We are now entering a new normal, with a more predictable regulatory environment. We know where the red line is, what to do, what not to do. Indeed, this predictability has created a better business environment。
China is a peaceful country, and education deserves to be studied by the United States
Moderator: At the geopolitical level, the United States seems to be inculcating in Americans that China is a threat to the survival of the United States, that we are competitors and that we cannot work together and lead the world to prosperity. What do you think
Cai Zhongshin:I disagree with that view of the world。
Moderator: Neither do I. I don't know why the only tone of our dialogue is that we're on the right side。
Cai Zhongshin:I think I understand why the United States has such an idea. China has emerged rapidly in the last 20 and 25 years, and manufacturing has become strong and a major exporter。
As a result of economic development, China has also become a major technological power. The fear in the United States is that economic and technological power will be transformed into military power, which will be a national security issue。
I understand that. But I think Central America is the two largest economies in the world. I think you need to step back and think. On the one hand, you should compete with China. Super-sized enterprises compete with Chinese Internet companies globally。
On the other hand, there are so many conflict areas in the world. Didn't President Trump say he stopped seven wars? China did not launch any of them. How many years has China not waged war? I feel like 30 or 40 years。
I think that China participated in the Korean War and perhaps the Vietnam War, but that was a long time ago. If you observe the actions of the Chinese people and China, it is a very peaceful country。
China is concerned about its own economic development and the well-being of its citizens. I think there is a lot of friction in the competition between China and the United States, and China feels that the United States is trying to contain China and prevent its economic rise。
Moderator: Turning to the well-being of citizens, you mentioned byte. I think there are reports that the byte beats just exceeded Meta's take. TikTok, a byte core product, is fundamentally different in the United States and China。
As a result of regulation and concern for the well-being of citizens, China ' s tremors have strict rules on content, screening and algorithms. And in the United States, TikTok is filled with cat videos and all kinds of meaningless content, although now I notice that TikTok has a STEM plate。
China has the strength and will to serve its citizens. I'm just wondering, how can we in the United States accept that more? This is often overlooked in the climate of confrontation between China and the United States. What more should we do with China
Cai Zhongshin:Education. China has a highly educated population and talks to any Chinese parent who wants their children to take a high-level examination and enter the best universities。
If they want to send their children abroad to study, they want Ivy League or Stanford or something. The Chinese are very educational. I think there are structural problems in the United States, such as the obstruction of teachers' unions. However, there are no trade unions for teachers in China。
THE FIELD IS NOT A WIN-WINNER, AND THERE IS STILL MUCH ROOM FOR COOPERATION BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES
Moderator: David, I'm curious how you see this. Are we destined to clash with China forever? Or is there another way forward under our great and dynamic President Trump
David Sacks:The United States and China are in high-tech competition, as well as in the security and economic spheres. The reason is that China has become rich and powerful, while the United States does not tolerate rival competitors. The United States wants to be the most powerful country。
The balance of power is to some extent a zero-sum game. The economy is not, but power is. The history of the United States is that we want to be first, and we do not like pure competitors. That's the bottom line。
That is fully justified. The essentially anarchy among the nations of the world means that there is no higher authority over States. If there's trouble in the global system, you can't call 911。
States placed survival above all considerations, and the way to survive in the international system was to become stronger. Your power is measured by the gap between the State and the next most powerful。
TWENTY YEARS AGO, CHINA WAS NOT CONSIDERED A THREAT BECAUSE IT WAS NOT RICH AND STRONG, BUT NOW IT IS. I THINK THAT LED TO A MORE HAWK-LIKE ATMOSPHERE IN WASHINGTON. I AGREE WITH SOME OF THEM BECAUSE I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT AMERICA WIN THE AI COMPETITION. WE DON'T WANT CHINA TO DOMINATE THE AI OR CHIP FIELD。
AS AMERICANS, WE WANT THE UNITED STATES TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL. IF I WERE CHINESE, I'D WANT CHINA TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL. I HAVE NO PERSONAL GRUDGES OR MALICE. BUT I HOPE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN MY SMALL FIELD, WHICH MEANS WINNING THE AI COMPETITION。
Cai Zhongshin:May I respond
Moderator: Of course. Go ahead。
Cai Zhongshin:I UNDERSTAND YOUR FEELINGS AS A PATRIOT IN THE HOPE THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL WIN. BUT AS FAR AS THE AI FIELD IS CONCERNED, I DON'T THINK THERE'S A SO-CALLED WINNING CONTEST. IT'S MORE LIKE A LONG MARATHON。
LOOKING AT MODEL COMPANY DEVELOPMENTS, YOU'LL FIND THAT THERE ARE NEW MODELS THAT LEAD EVERY WEEK, BUT NEXT WEEK THEY'LL BE OVERTAKEN BY OTHER MODELS. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE AI INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE HAS NOT DEVELOPED A CLEAR BUSINESS MODEL。
THE E-COMMERCE BUSINESS WE DO HAS A NETWORKED MARKET MODEL, BUT I HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT WHETHER THIS WINNER-EATING CHARACTERISTIC ALSO EXISTS IN MODEL DEVELOPMENT. I DON'T THINK AI IS A WINNER-FRIENDLY FIELD。
IN MY VIEW, THE REAL VICTORY LIES NOT IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE STRONGEST AI MODEL, BUT IN THE ABILITY TO LAND AND APPLY TECHNOLOGY MORE QUICKLY. THE UNITED STATES SHOULD INVEST MORE RESOURCES IN TECHNOLOGY APPLICATION AND DIFFUSION, RATHER THAN FOCUSING SOLELY ON TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT. AT PRESENT, EACH TECHNOLOGY GIANT INVESTS ABOUT $80 BILLION A YEAR IN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, A LARGE INVESTMENT。
China’s Development Path. First, China actively embraces the open source concept; secondly, many companies, including ours, have launched models of modest parameters -- for example, 1.7 billion and 8 billion -- that are more suitable for mobile devices and laptops. This development model is more conducive to rapid diffusion of technology。
IT NEEDS TO BE NOTED THAT I DO NOT ASSERT THAT CHINA HAS TAKEN THE LEAD IN THE MODEL TECHNOLOGY COMPETITION, BUT THAT CHINA HAS MADE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS AT THE OPERATIONAL LEVEL. LAST YEAR'S SURVEY SHOWED THAT ONLY 81 TP3T OF CHINESE ENTERPRISES HAVE APPLIED AI TECHNOLOGY IN THEIR OPERATIONS, AND THIS IS NOW CLOSE TO 501 TP3T. THE SPEED AT WHICH SUCH APPLICATIONS BECOME AVAILABLE IS REMARKABLE。
AI IS BECOMING THE UBIQUITOUS FOUNDATIONAL ELEMENT OF AIR, AND NO COUNTRY CAN CLAIM EXCLUSIVE POSSESSION OF AIR. IN THE KEY AREAS OF HEALTH CARE, BIOLOGY AND SO FORTH, AI HAS GREAT POTENTIAL, WHICH PROVIDES A VAST SPACE FOR COOPERATION BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES。
The key to returning to Ali is to focus
MODERATOR: THE MOST CRITICAL QUESTION, WHETHER SELF-STUDY OR THE USE OF EXISTING MODELS, IS WHAT IS THE REAL IMPACT OF AI ON THE OPERATION OF THE ENTERPRISE? HOW DOES THIS CHANGE THE SCALE OF RECRUITMENT? WHAT ARE THE LEVELS OF IMPACT? WHAT WILL BE THE CHANGES IN EFFICIENCY AND THE NATURE OF WORK? WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS OF AI IN ALI BABA
Cai Zhongshin:AI HAS INDEED SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED OUR OPERATIONAL EFFICIENCY AND HAS CORRESPONDINGLY REDUCED HUMAN DEMAND. WE'RE TRYING TO WRITE QUARTERLY FINANCIAL STATEMENTS WITH AI AND EVEN CONSIDER USING AI AT ANALYSTS' MEETINGS TO SEE IF PEOPLE CAN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENCES, AND THEN WE'LL CUT THE ENTIRE FINANCIAL SECTOR DOWN。
BUT AI'S GREATEST VALUE LIES IN ENABLING CONSUMER-END APPLICATIONS. OUR DEEP INTEGRATION OF AI INTO ELECTRICITY, MAP AND OUT-SALE OPERATIONS HAS INCREASED THE SIZE OF USERS BY INCREASING USER EXPERIENCE, AN IMPACT THAT ULTIMATELY TRANSLATES INTO INCOME GROWTH。
MODERATOR: WILL DEMAND FOR LABOUR DECLINE NATURALLY AS MORE AND MORE WORK IS DONE BY AI
Cai Zhongshin:WE HAVEN'T ANNOUNCED ANY LAYOFFS BECAUSE OF AI, BUT I'VE BEEN ASKING THE HEAD OF OUR ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT HOW MANY CODES ARE WRITTEN BY AI. I GOT DIFFERENT ANSWERS DEPENDING ON WHICH DEPARTMENT YOU ASKED, BUT I THINK IT MIGHT BE 301 TP3T。
Moderator: So high
Cai Zhongshin:Yeah, I made a weighted average for different sectors, probably that number。
Moderator: Ali Baba is a large enterprise operating in many countries around the world. How does Ali build a business culture, and how does he manage a large number of employees, diverse needs and problems? How did you manage that
Cai Zhongshin:Focus. Before I took over as Chairman, I was actually fading out of the company, focusing on the Brooklyn Basket Team. About a year and a half ago, I came back to chair the company。
THE FIRST THING I DO IS TO TELL YOU THAT WE CANNOT SAY AGAIN THAT OUR COMPANY IS INVOLVED IN SIX DIFFERENT BUSINESSES, WHICH IS SO CONFUSING. WE ONLY DO TWO THINGS: E-COMMERCE AND CLOUD COMPUTING, ALL OF WHICH CONTAIN AI ELEMENTS, WHICH ARE OUR CORE BUSINESS. THIS FOCUS ENABLES OUR TEAM TO FOCUS AND IMPLEMENT CORPORATE DECISION-MAKING。
Moderator: Can you at the end simply predict the performance of the team for the new season
Cai Zhongshin:You mean the whole league, or the special-finger basket team
Moderator: Let's talk about the basket bar。
Cai Zhongshin:We are in a reconstruction cycle. This summer we took full advantage of the first five rounds of the show, while retaining the important 2026 show assets。
Such a layout has already demonstrated our strategic direction, and we will focus on developing young players and giving them sufficient space to grow. While this means going through the process of growth, it is the clear path to development that we are taking at this stage。
IT'LL TAKE ANOTHER 20 YEARS TO GET HERE
Moderator: I would like to ask a question. As we mentioned in the previous panel discussion, China has a slightly different view of the technology of autopilot. While testing auto-driving technologies, China wants to ensure that they do not cause widespread unemployment。
What does China think of auto-driving? Tens of millions of workers work as drivers, and what do they think about this? How does the Chinese Government and people view self-driving as an incredible change and its impact on employment
Cai Zhongshin:I THINK THE GOVERNMENT EMBRACES IT ALL. THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT INTRODUCED THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE + POLICY A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND BY 2030, FIVE YEARS LATER, THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE PREVALENCE OF AI INTELLIGENCE, EQUIPMENT, ETC. IN SOCIETY AT 90%. THIS IS AN OFFICIAL AND PUBLIC STATEMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT, AND IT IS AN OVERALL COMMITMENT。
THERE'S REALLY NOT MUCH DISCUSSION ABOUT AI TO REPLACE HUMAN WORK. ON THE WHOLE, HOWEVER, CHINESE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT EMPLOYMENT. CHINA HAS ABOUT 10 MILLION UNIVERSITY GRADUATES A YEAR. THE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN CHINA, I.E. BETWEEN 16 AND 24 YEARS OF AGE, INCLUDING GRADUATE STUDENTS, IS 181 TP3T. IT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY HIGH, AND THE CHINESE HAVE A LOT OF ANXIETY ABOUT IT。
THIS IS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMY. ALTHOUGH THE OVERALL STATE OF CHINA ' S ECONOMY IS QUITE GOOD IN TERMS OF INFRASTRUCTURE, ACCESS TO ENERGY, ETC. BUT THERE IS STILL A LOW MOOD, AS CHINA HAS EXPERIENCED A DECLINE IN THE REAL ESTATE MARKET OVER THE PAST FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, WITH AVERAGE HOUSE PRICES FALLING BY ABOUT 301 TP3T. THIS IS A VERY NEGATIVE WEALTH EFFECT, AND IT CONTINUES。
David Sacks: Is China afraid of AGI? I'm talking about the fear of losing control of super intelligence. Is it a universal fear, or is it only the concern of the United States
Cai Zhongshin:THERE IS LITTLE TALK ABOUT IT FROM WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT AGI CAN BE BETTER CONTROLLED THAN THE UNITED STATES. BUT THERE ARE PERSISTENT CONCERNS。
I just listened to Google DeepMind, founder and CEO Demis Hassabis, who predicted that AGI would be 5 to 10 years, and I think AGI might be 20 years. The focus is on the word “universal”. AI must be able to generalize and apply the principles to a scene that has never been seen before。
THE TEAM IS A BUSINESS AND A SOCIAL INSTITUTION, NBA IS ESSENTIALLY A PRODUCT
MODERATOR: YOU OWN THE BROOKLYN BASKETBALLS AND THE FREEMANS OF NEW YORK
Cai Zhongshin:Yeah, it's not easy at all. Any professional team is both a business and a social institution, and we need to make the fans happy. There are elements similar to the Church and State divisions, and there is no difference between operating a news agency。
Moderator: Can we start with WNBA? The recent Caitlin Clark season claims have generated much controversy and concern. WNBA did what right? Did what wrong? Did the League do its part to protect her faceball star
Cai Zhongshin:Caitlin Clark undoubtedly had a huge impact on the WNBA. All indicators are rising. She's just entered the League season, and we've seen ratings, ticket sales, sponsorship revenues -- almost four times the original target. Her economic impact on the Alliance is extraordinary。
Moderator: Indeed, it cannot be denied。
Cai Zhongshin:But because of her nature, she's a different player -- a guard, a relatively small one, and she's been questioned by the outside world about her ability to adapt to the League's physical confrontation, but she's proven to be。
Of course, there's always competition, like her and Angel Reese's confrontation since college. It has been expressed as an ethnic antagonism, but I think we should go beyond that and focus on the skills and talents of the players themselves。
Today, there are more and more good college players in the Alliance, such as Sonia Citron, who is now a popular candidate for the best annual show and who has broken the League's three-point hit record. If you ask WNBA exactly what's right, I think it's just the integration of people。
But what really changed was that before the season when Caitlin Clark appeared, the group of fans who watched ESPN basically didn't watch women basketball. Maybe someone's watching the college competition, but definitely not the WNBA. But now, some of your mainstream sports fans are looking at WNBA。
CA: I have an observation that you and I are old-school basketball fans, watching the '80s and '90s, watching Patrick Ewing and Charles Buckley。
WNBA'S BODY IS NOW MORE CONFRONTATIONAL, MORE RESILIENT. AND EVERY TIME JAMES JUMPS AND GETS FOULED, HE FALLS ALL OVER THE PLACE. SO MAYBE YOU COULD COMMENT ON JAMES, OR NBA, THE PRODUCT。
Cai Zhongshin:NBA PRODUCTS ARE GREAT. I THINK IT IS UNFAIR TO COMPARE THE STRENGTH OF PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE MEN'S UNION AND THE WOMEN'S LEAGUE. BOTH ARE HIGHLY CONFRONTATIONAL。
If you're sitting on the side, you're looking at physical confrontation and physical ability, right? But there are other dimensions to the game. I now serve on the NBA Competition Committee. Every season, the committee adjusts the rules to make the NBA a better product。
WHEN I GOT THE CALL, I WAS THINKING, YOU WANTED ME TO SIT ON THE COMMITTEE WITH JASON KID, CHRIS PAUL, OLD K? CAN I REALLY KNOW MORE ABOUT BASKETBALL THAN THEY DO
I said to NBA Managing Director Adam Silver, that the committee should be called the “Product Committee”, because the adaptation of the rules essentially determines what the audience sees as the “products”. For example, changing the three-point position is not only a matter of competition rules, but also of “product design”。
Moderator: Do you think this is a good product when you see the Boston Celtics throw a game into 43 threes
Cai Zhongshin:I think it's a great product because there are 18 different ways to throw 43 three-pointer balls in a game。
This post is from the Micro-Intelligence Public Code (ID:zhidxcom), by Chen Xuda